Profitable Founder
Twice a week (Wed/Sun), I interview the best indie hackers and tech founders so you can steal their playbook and apply it to your own journey.
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@asyncr0ne?sub_confirmation=1
Join the Newsletter: https://floriandarroman.com/newsletter
Find me on:
Website: https://floriandarroman.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/florian.darroman/
X: https://x.com/intent/user?screen_name=floriandarroman
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/floriandarroman/
Profitable Founder
I made $46K in 35 days with OpenClaw 🦞
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
I grow usually uh like one to two KMR every day. I know it's the same.
SPEAKER_01So today it's like uh 66k. This is Nevo. He went from 20,000 to 66,000 MRR in 35 days. Thanks to OpenClaw and Larry.
SPEAKER_00He released this article with 200 followers and it got to 7 million views. When he did that, post his skyrocket to 700 trials immediately.
SPEAKER_01In this episode, Nevo checked. How it tripled his revenue in 35 days, and why your SAS needs to be agentic first to survive in 2026.
SPEAKER_00All the markets are flooded because everybody can vibe for everything. There's so much SAS going out every day. You need to find your blue ocean. This is, I think, all this agentic stuff because there is not enough people there.
SPEAKER_01So Nevo, you said funny thing about life, you don't know what's going to happen. But when something does, your first reaction can change your entire life. Do you believe in luck?
SPEAKER_00Um, I believe that there can be like a luck point that you like really have luck, but you really have to like build up for this, basically. So it was not like you know, post is my product, um, in the last months grew like crazy, like really, really, really fast. And it's really what triggered this is like one article that did this. But before that one article, I managed to group post this to 20k MRR in like one and a half years. And it was already a product that is like very much developer-oriented. Um, it was open source, it has like six million Docker downloads. So it already had like a lot of credibility. Uh, but it was like, you know, like a me tier slow SAS growing every month, maybe 1k, maybe nothing, maybe 3K. And then this article changed a lot. Even before this article, I already started to put posties on open claw specifically, so it can get like a lot of growth. So I think I don't think there is like somebody, you know, I didn't build anything, I just did something small and luck, somebody posted something. There was like a buildup for this, basically. So when you're lucky so many times, it's not luck anymore.
SPEAKER_01I love that because that's exactly where I wanted to go. I've been following your product for a while. I saw you like pushing it, I think since uh 2024, and you were like going everywhere already. You did like some YouTube collaboration, you did a lot of growth acts. So I want to go back at the beginning. Like, how did Posties actually start? Where did the ID come from? And how did you build it?
SPEAKER_00So actually, it was supposed to be a totally different product back in 2020. I 2022, I worked for a company called Post uh called Novo, and it was like an open source social uh open source notification platform. Uh, I've never seen something like this because usually I'm used to like open source is like databases, infrastructure tools, and so on. But that was like a like a SaaS product, same like any other SaaS, that is open source, and it was really interesting because I worked for this company for like two years, and just by being open source, I managed to bring so much growth to it. We did like 30,000 stars in one and a half years. Um, it was pretty much cool. And in the second year, I started to consult uh open source companies on how to also do the same thing I did for novel, and it was very niche, so it was like nobody was talking about this. Nobody like because open source and marketing was not like a big thing. If you look like looked in Google how to do marketing for open source, you would not find anything. So it was like a really niche consultancy. I charge like a very high ticket price between 3 to 4k per customer for two meetings per week, basically. And it was really nice, and I was like, okay, wow, I I'm on to something. Let's create a SaaS for this, also. And it was supposed to be some kind of a SaaS, it's called Git Room. That's that's supposed to help you to create your open source launch, everything that I used to do, all my playbook, how to post on Reddit, how to post on dev.2, and and and so on. But really quickly, I understood like this is not going to work. It's like too much of a niche market. Like it's good for consultancy, but you can build SaaS on this. It's like the audience is too too too like very small. And I was like, what? I'm going to like kill it. Let's let's do something. Let's just like convert it to a different product. It was really already type of like kind of a social media scheduling tool. It has some other features, like you can see when is the GitHub trending going to change. It has some platforms like dev.2, uh medium.com, and so on that are not really social. So I just talked to my designer and started to work on postils. Because I'm really good at open source and marketing open source, everything I do is always open source. Like I developed this in open source, and the main website usually I also make in open source, and every other project inside is open source. Uh, so back in 2024, open source was still very, very strong for SaaS. I launched it on Reddit and it got, I think, like 250k views for my launch. Um, and people are like going crazy for this because it's like a market that exists for like 20 years, this uh social media scheduling, and nobody created any open source, like really good open source, uh, until I learned something. And I understood this is like a good place to create more and more, like I can just push the open source more and more and more. So, this is how it all started, basically. So I already have this platform and I pushed another Reddit post, another Reddit post. And and what is nice about this Reddit post is because you it's very hard usually to do in Reddit, self-promotion. Like if you try to do like proper self-promotion, people will say, like, this is self-promotion, it's it's not with a guideline of Reddit, they'll just remove your post, filter it, and so on. But here, when you're in open source and you publish on slash art less self-hosted, people are just waiting for to learn about your new release, about a new thing that they're going to launch. Like self-promotion is totally valid. So I just like kept on every like one or two times a month, each post like this on Reddit, like 250k views uh on the on the open source side. And this is how it all started. Like push the open source as much as possible.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to ask you why open source, but I feel like you answered the question already. But I will ask you again why open source.
SPEAKER_00Um, there is a few things why I would go with open source. Um, and also it's not for everybody, and you really need to think if you if it's for you and what is the business model of the open source. So I build Meteor SAS. Meteor SAS is basically um SaaS company that is mostly point and click, maybe some background jobs. Um, it's something that everybody can create themselves. I didn't enter this market of social of social media scheduler as the first person that do this. There is maybe thousands of people that are doing this. So, and I see there are so many competitors also on on X, on LinkedIn. Every day I see a new social media scheduler. It's really easy to make. So if everybody can, and and today, back in 2024, vibe coding was not like crazy. So today, in 2026, everybody can build at some kind of level what I built. So it doesn't matter already to be open source, like take it, use it for your own, or vibe code your own solution. It's not a problem. Like it's it's good. Then also there is like the edge of um fast feedback um from a lot of developers that using your platform, finding bugs, contribute code, and so on. Always really, really good. You get really because the one thing that everybody wants when they launch something is to get like a surge of people coming to their product to test it, to do different things. In reality, it almost never working like this. Because you start a product, if you don't have any audience, okay, should they start with SEO? Maybe there is an influencer, like you don't know. But when you just launch in open source, you get a massive amount of developers coming to your Discord, trying to use your product, deploy it with Docker, and so on. So the feedback is also like super, super fast. Um, today I don't know if it will work the same because open source got very AI sloppy. So all this channel of open source people already understand like open source is a good channel to launch in terms of feedback, marketing, and so on. So so many projects launching in open source every day with AI slope. So it's not as strong, still strong. And then you also need to understand like your business model. Mine is not the best business model for most open source companies because my open source is identical to my cloud. So it's like you want to use the cloud, use the cloud. You want to use the open source, use the open source. And the open source has like six million Docker downs today. And yeah, most of the people go for the open source, I guess. Uh, which is fine for me. I think people would not use the actual cloud solution if there wasn't there was no one, no cloud option, they would just not do anything because this is like the type of people that are like self-hosters and stuff like that. So go ahead, enjoy this. Uh, it's great. And then it depends on your business model. Mine is identical. Some people have like a mini open source project and a different cloud project, and then it's more of like kind of like a lead magnet. The open source do one thing, the cloud do like a bigger thing, so you can convert. Some people have super restrictive license for their open source, so it's not really open source, it's more like a self-hosted. So it means that you can clone it, but you can't resell it, you can't give other people to use it, and so on. It really depends on the model, but I think open source is still a very good way to push your product.
SPEAKER_01How do you reward the contributors? Because um, for example, you make money with the project that is open source. So if tomorrow I go and help you build a product, how do I get uh reward for that?
SPEAKER_00I think this is um you and me, we're like business people. So it's always in our mind like why there is even contributors, like what's in it for them? Like, why would they want to contribute code at a project that is not their project? They might not make any money from this, and so on. It's a it's a question that um hit me a lot of time because inherently I'm not an open source person. Like I use open source, I clone open source, I use npm, I install different stuff, I use open source all the time. I wasn't really involved in any community because I I couldn't see the what's in it for me. Like, why would I need to do all this kind of stuff? Uh, but today, after like a long time in Novo and Postis, I understood people just do it as a hobby. People are hardcore for open source, they like to contribute code, it's part of their fun. Be part of this community and build stuff. They are not expected to be rewarded, basically. Um I know it's kind of weird, but that's that's the story behind it. I mean, it gives them some kind of fame. You see them as the contributors when you create a new um, you know, um, a new version, they are being tagged. They might send it to their friend. Look, I contribute to this big open source project and so on. So this like fame, but there's usually no money involved in the process.
SPEAKER_01So you build this product, worked fine. Um, then you added your gross hack because you say yourself that you are a gross hacker. And I want to go back to that because there is a lot of things that worked for you. Uh, as I said, I saw like your few collabs on YouTube back in the day. Uh, you were first on Product Hunt, uh, a lot of influencer marketing, Reddit. Instead of going in like all step by step, could you maybe like highlight the ones that will still work today?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. I think the thing about growth hacking usually is that it won't last forever. Like you find some loop, like some cracks in the loop, and then you can push into this. Over time, more and more people learn about this thing, so it's less effective. It's always like this. Same thing as I said, Reddit, open source. Now it's like less views. Um, I had a few things that work really well. I think some of them still work. So, Product Hunt, for example. I used to launch every three to six months. So, every three to six months, I would try to launch on product hunt, and the the product hunt uh says to me, like, listen, you have to wait like eight months, you can't launch yet. So, I'll just do a request to launch it anyway. Um, and they always approve it. So it was good. And and product hunt is not like it was in 2020, 2021, where it was like really you could get like a lot of paying users from launching there. Today, I think uh product hand barely will give you any customers. The main thing about product hunt is like if you're on top of the list in product hand, many newsletters will use you as a resource. So they can take you because you're in the first position and put you in their newsletter. So, you know, like there is uh when Post is not making a lot of money, uh there is a very popular newsletter, it's called the Rundown AI. Um, and it's very expensive to list, like they take a lot of money just to put you inside a newsletter. But because I was on product hunt, they put me in the newsletter and I saw like 200 people immediately coming to my website, which was crazy. It was not from Product Hunt itself. So this is why I keep launching on product hunt. Now, how I win product hunt so many times, this is really interesting. I understood already a long time ago that people are very um let's say selfish. Like they see, like you post something on X or LinkedIn, they see that you are um, you know, you want help on product hunt. If there is no benefit for them to do this, like to vote for you, they probably won't vote for you. Um it's very hard. I haven't seen a lot of people just like you know launching on different platforms getting like tons of upvotes. And not only that, product hunt even become became more aggressive because of because of fake upvotes. That if you create a new user on product hunt to upvote, it's not even uh capturing this. Like you need to actually have like some karma, be active before, write some comments and so on. So understand the only way for me to actually win product hunt is by actually reaching out to people uh privately, asking them to help me with the lunch, and also incentivize them in a way that it's okay with product hunt. So I would ask somebody if they can help me with the lunch. So this is the take like I'm taking from you. Now I have to give back. If not, I would do something. And I would say, in return, I can help you with anything you need. If you want, I can. If you have some if you need some customers that you want me to connect you inside of Postsees, let's do it. If you have uh I can list you in the newsletter, um, I can uh give you a very big discount for my product and so on. Uh go and and and check it. Don't give me like uh up vote if you don't like the product, basically. Whatever you decide. And a lot of people comply with it, like they want to do this. And the thing is, like the more people that you can reach, the more upvotes that you can get. And I try to find some ways to reach a lot of people, not just like a few, because how many can you reach if you okay? WhatsApp a few, LinkedIn a few, but you need like a lot of upvotes. And this is where I do like I call it like the growth gray area of marketing. I have a few things, uh, I run LinkedIn automations, so you know it's like sending it to the people that are on my LinkedIn list. I do uh Slack automation, which is pretty crazy. So you can join like a Slack group and then message the people inside the Slack group. Slack because it's like for personal, uh it's it's more for like a work thing, it's not meant for communities, they have almost no restrictions for anything you want to do. You can send a message in Slack, like every single uh so I send a lot of this, then I do X, and I also might books book a few influencers basically. So yeah, it's it's a lot of planning to do all this. I don't know uh if I do more product hand launches now that Post is like more popular, but it definitely helps and it it definitely works. And this is like uh I think the main thing in order to get these like little growth points. Like if you you have to think a little bit different because what everybody is doing, if you do what everybody is doing, most likely it will not work for you, basically.
SPEAKER_01Also it works. Every successful founder I know have one thing in common they need distribution, they show up on Google, Reddit, or social media. And when you ask ChatGPT what's the best tool for X, they are also showing up. But most funders they spend all day building features, fixing bugs, or talking to customers, and sometimes they ship more features. But at the end of the day, the competitor with the worst product gets all the customers. That's frustrating because we all know that your product deserves the spotlight more than them. And I know you probably don't have the time to write 30 blog posts, a month post on social media or reply on Reddit threads. You have to build a good product after all. So nothing gets done, and this competitor is still the one getting all the customers. That's why we built this trip. You just have to create an account, add your website, and we take care of the distribution for you. Content, backlinks, reddit, social media. We push your product everywhere. You can finally focus on building the best product while we get you customers on autopilot. You can click on the link in the description to get your free trial. And the next 20 founders who join will get 90% off on the first month. Now back to the episode. So you basically grew this product from zero to 20k by yourself with all the contributors and with all the gross hack um that you did. What was like maybe the key lesson for you to actually build a product from scratch to 20k a month?
SPEAKER_00People, if people want to build mid-tier SAS, they should start as soon as possible. Because I think the more time passes, it becomes harder. And it becomes much, much, much harder. Because like M tier, which is very easy to create, with a vibe coding, the market is being flooded, like crazy flooded. And you need to really really, really be good if you're planning to like every year that you wait, it's going to become much, much, much harder. I don't know if I started post-s in 2025, 2025, 26, I could do the same. Maybe I don't know. But it's really hard. Um, and the thing that I did in order to grow the product, and I think this is the main thing that everybody should do when they do something like I did with me tier SAS is really try to stick on trends. When you can see there is like a trend happening, always check if you can, you know, play with this trend. And I did it all the time, even until 20k. So the first trend before everything else was NA10. So 2025, NATAin was really booming with NATA uh templates and so on. And I've seen like this is like a very good way for me to add posties inside if there is like an NA10 template, because somebody can create, for example, like a viral post on how to create uh with VO3 some video and schedule it to TikTok before OpenClaw. And they can put me as the last node just to schedule it to social media, then they can sell the entire template to a person. That person takes the template and see, ah, okay, in order to run this, I need this service, this service, and this service. So they just have to because they already know what they're going to get. And also for me specifically, I knew that if people do automation and not do manual scheduling, like go and schedule stuff one after another, it's going to decrease my churn because everything is automated. So people don't need to all time all the time do something. So they just like you know, I have some people running NA10 automation every 15 minutes, it's putting like a new post for posties. And I saw this trend and I was like, okay, it's a trend. What can I do? And then I was like, okay, where can I find the people that are doing NA10 automations? And I understood, like, okay, school.com is really strong with NA10 groups. There's like tons of NA10 groups. So I hired somebody from AppWork, pretty cheap, not something expensive, to go into all this NA10 group and find me the email of the founder and the um and the name of the group and so on. So they did that, and I got like a list of tons of emails and founders, and I started like an NA10 automation asking founders to add me to their template. And in return, I can again help them with the newsletter, give them a free posties account, like a lifetime bill for posties, um, connect them and so on. And the months that I did that on the first trend, I jumped from 6K to 12k. It's very similar to what happened with OpenClaw. I found a trend and then I climbed on this. So it was not as big as OpenClaw, and posties was not as mature, but still, it's like it worked. And then after a while, again, another trend MCP. MCP was booming everywhere. Everybody talked about MCP. There were so many AI companies like Composio, um, pushing MCP everywhere and stuff. I just go and created an MCP for posties, and I did. Product hunt lunge on this MCP, and I also started to push it on every possible library online that I can put this MCP. And again, that increased another 3, 4K MRR. So I always tried the trends. And this is what I did until like 20K. Of course, there's like a few more things that helped me on the way. For example, I was on Starter Story that kicked me again with like 3K dollar MRR. Um, I think I had a collaboration with a few more creators over time, not something crazy on TikTok and so on. Pushed me here and there, but all these like trends. That's like the main, main, main thing, I think.
SPEAKER_01I love that because it's John what um yes, sir, my last podcast, uh, the founder of Chatbase said like basically you have to partner with some of a big um entity in a community, and for you, like NA10, MCP, and uh OpenCloud was kind of a new community that was starting, and you were just like putting your brand in the middle of that, and that helped you grow each step.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Like I had instead of being the hype, so I know some people like they they build like an open claw wrapper, for example, or like an MCP to create. I don't want to be the hype because I know that hype they come and go, they might change. So, for example, open claw, still very popular, but I think it is a little bit not as it was at start because there are also like new players coming in, like cloud co-work, uh perplexity computers, like more players coming in. So I don't do open claw specific, I do agentic. So it it can work with all the other ones, basically.
SPEAKER_01I'm excited to talk about that in a few minutes, but first I just want to ask you a question. We talked about all your success with Growth Hack. How do you deal with failing and do you move fast? Like, how do you actually iterate, try new things? Like, what is your mindset about that?
SPEAKER_00Um, it's very hard to declare a failure, basically, because what is what is a failure, even it's like I landed something and didn't get more users or more money. It didn't like if you look at the first since I I slunced Post is until I got to 20k MRR, except for the few first months, that was really the product was shitty. Uh just started out. Um, there were always always a growth. Like every month I grew in MR. It was never going down. So, yeah, some of the moves that I've I've made really grew it a lot, and some just like didn't do anything, basically. Um, so I didn't care. I just like kept doing everything that I see. I think the main thing for me, um, unlike other people, is that I love marketing more than actually developing the product. So I'm all day trying to see like what is the next thing that that I can actually do to push this. Um, and also I think when you are like a founder for such a long time, so I had previous startups before that I sold also, your hunch is becoming like better in what you should do and what you should not do. Um you can appreciate, like you can understand more what is the target audience here, what is their psychological behavior and so on. Like, for example, I've never tried to do anything um that will try to convert developers, let's say, of the open source. I never created like a product to make open source people uh pay. Maybe if you ask me like five, seven years ago, I would do it because I would think uh everybody can pay. But now I'd say, okay, there is this type of audience. This is a type of audience that will never pay me money. They just want to use the open source. Okay, let's not touch them, just give them more tools. Let's so you get like better hunches. I think uh in previous products, I had a lot of bad hunches and a lot of bad stuff that I've done that didn't move the needle at all, basically.
SPEAKER_01I think it's uh important what you say as well that you start to like see like who are your customers for you. Like now you have a really uh specific ICP, like ideal customer for posties. You say that you're targeting um tech founder or like people in the tech mainly, you will not target a broken mortar business. How do you feel about that? Like, because a lot of people struggle to make that big jump, you know, like to target only one person. What would you say to a person who hesitates?
SPEAKER_00I can't say I'm targeting only one person. I think I have a few, like multiple audiences that are using posties. Um, and actually, a lot of the audiences that I wanted at first for posties, I didn't use that. Like it's not who came in the end. Like I thought I wanted for posties to come like so a lot of marketing agencies will come to posties. Why? Because you know, a single user they buy like the $29 per month package, but agencies they manage to other people their accounts, so they have to scale in the pricing. Plus, because they're managing multiple accounts for multiple people, probably they need uh they will have a lower churn because you know they they they have to use social media scheduling to this, not something that they like maybe it didn't happen in the end. Most of the people that came are like more tech people, and today I I think it's like 90% of the people that come are really people that you know at least how to use the API, open claw, um, and so on. And I think it's it's good because I there is um it's a market that exists for like 20 years. There's like really big competitors like Buffer that making $2 million per month. And you have uh Hootsuite, I think they're converting the market, they're making me tons of millions every year. Really hard to compete with them on the exact same audience. It's really nice if you can put yourself in like this blue ocean of people that they are not touching, basically. Buffer still don't have like a good API, even they're just now working on a on a new API. So if you can really put yourself in a different audience, that's not it was not my plan at first.
SPEAKER_01No, but I feel like it fits you because I saw your last video about open cloud and posties and the style of this video, I love it. And that's like you target tech people, you know, like there is no normies who will watch this video and be like, oh, I understand what it means. So I think you know, when you find an audience or like a customer that fits you as well, it's more fun for you to do the marketing and everything, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh, 100%. 100%. I like to work with technical people because they also require less support. You know, they they know like, ah, wait, then you know, there's like a ticket, and they send me uh I have a bug here. Here is the screenshot. I got 500 uh error. I I saw it in the network. Here, here is a screenshot, and uh, you know the payload. You would not see this with like normal audiences.
SPEAKER_01No, let's talk about OpenCloud. You skyrocketed uh post is from around 20k to I think now like above 60, like 63, 67k mr.
SPEAKER_00Today, because I grew I grow usually uh like one to two KMR every day. I know it's insane. So today it's like uh 66k mr. Crazy.
SPEAKER_01First come great. So going. I want to hear the story because I had Oliver Henry. Uh, if you didn't watch the podcast yet, you can watch it on my uh channel. Oliver Henry is the guy you met at the good time, and together you basically like pushed uh posties to where it is. Can you just like bring us back to how it happened?
SPEAKER_00Let me just before Oliver started. Um, I already saw OpenClaw even before Oliver, and I already have a skill for posties, or I talked to Oliver, uh, and I already started to market it for OpenClaw. I had already this section on my website, um, and so on. So it was already ready for let's say first we try OpenClaw, but it's always already ready for agents. Then I saw this guy, Oliver, um, on X. So what I do, I don't like to use social media listening tool because they have like three channels. So I just, you know, here and there I just go to X, write posties on the search, and just like look for the latest post. So I saw this guy Oliver, something like 200 followers he had. Yeah, he created that he has a very good storyteller, created this uh open claw machine named uh Larry, and it was really cool. Like he was um um really writing how Larry helps him and also automating his TikTok um in order to get like a lot of views. And I was like, he said a few times he mentioned also posted, like he's using posties. So I was like, oh, cool. This is cool that he's actually doing this with posties, 200 followers. Uh I was like, you know, I have like in general, not only Oliver, I have a lot of UGC. Usually people like, you know, even in the open source, just mention posties on socials. So it was pretty cool. And he said that he's going to write an article about posties. Um, not about sorry. He's going to write an article about OpenClaw, he's bot Larry, and how he grows his TikTok account. And I was in my mind, okay, Oliver has like 200 followers. He's going to write an article, probably will get to like 10k views. If he mentioned posties a few times, maybe I'll get like one, two, three subscriptions. That will be like pretty cool. Like I didn't think it will be something so big. He wrote an article, and the article posties was mentioned like nine times. And I never talked to him by the way, until after this article. Never in my life. Like he's a nice guy, but nice guy, but I never ever talked to him. And then he released this article with 200 followers and it got to 7 million views. It's I don't know. Like, this is one of the biggest growth hacks that I discovered later. So this was really like the beginning of the Agentic Postees. When he did that, Posties skyrocket to 700 trials immediately. Like, usually I have like around almost 100 per month, but this was like 700 trials, it was insane. And then I started to talk to him about this article and so on. So it started to bring a lot of revenue to posties. And then he did another article the week after that, got like one and a half million views, but it was giving a lot more subscriptions to posties because he didn't like just like write an algorithm in the article, what to do step by step. He created a skill in this article. And this is a lot stronger because it's really reminds me of the NA10 template. A person go, install the skill, up, you need to use posties. Okay, they go and they just like install posties. So it was like a lot more converting, it was crazy. And you know, I started to get like I've never seen like this kind of growth. More and more people are using it. And and then I was like, okay, but what can I do next? Like I need more. Okay, let's the let's let's have like this whole whole thing and and increase it more. It's really hard to tell exactly what kept on what kept going. So he did this 700, and and since then the trials went down, like because it's like 700 trials per week. But now, even after all his articles, and he in his article also still converting because it's like popular articles, I'm still getting like I have like a constant uh 400 trials per week, which is insane for me. What I did is that I understood that X are changing, and they want people to read long content form. And and and it's it's it didn't start only with articles. Like before Twitter was like a few characters, they didn't increase this, then they have like long tweets, and now they have articles, and they know that people like they spend, they read articles. This is something that people uh they want people to stay more in the platform. So, and then they had I think like two or three months ago, this competition on X about articles, who gets the most amount of views, some crypto guy won, but with like 48 million on an article. So I understood there's something with article, it's a little bit different. It's not um it's not like uh all the other stuff. So I also tried it and I wrote uh I made an article about OpenClaw also, also with 200 followers, and it also got to half a million views. Insane for me, like uh it's it reminds me of Reddit just like a lot stronger because the problem with Reddit mostly is that I when I put a post on Reddit, it's targeted at technical people. So technical people is really good for branding, people seeing novel uh posties and so on, people maybe you know use the open source, but it's not a con like a converting channel, like it's not like a direct marketing channel where people see the post and go and buy posties. Really hard on Reddit to do something like this. But X is different, there's many buyers, many, many, many buyers. So this article also brought me uh also a lot of followers. I don't know if followers means that much anymore. Like I think I would prefer to stay on 200 because I saw that when I'm on 200, the article is like exploding a lot more than when I'm on 2000. And I also saw another thing, and I think this is the main shift X is doing. Um usually what will happen is that you have a certain amount of followers, you post something, a percentage of them will see the post that you posted, and then it will expand more and more and more, depends how much viral it is. Now I feel what they are doing is that they're trying to do more of I don't go, I'm not going to show to your followers in second degree and stuff. I'm going to show what you posted, the article that you posted, to the audience that are looking for this kind of specific content. Why I think like that, because after I I read Oliver's article and I read my article, I saw that every time I open my phone and I look at the main feed, I see a lot of open claw articles all the time, more and more open open claw articles. It's like my entire field was open claw articles. So I said, okay, this is interesting. I also saw again, people with 200 followers and a lot of um um views on their articles. And I was like, okay, I have a lot of money also now because uh I can invest back after all this growth. Let's contact people, let's see if I can contact people to write articles for me, like make like influencer content post. And this is what I did. I contacted so many people, people with like 200 followers, 300 followers, and started to say, like, would you write an article about positives? Yeah, for sure. I all already using, and many of them have like, I was already using the tool, so great, let's let's do it. So a lot of people wrote an article also. Um, and I try to scale it as much as I can. And then I kind of stopped now to fund new articles and still tries remaining on like 400. I still don't know why I need to do better tracking, but some people come to me lately and say, listen, like clot code or codex, uh like uh said use posties basically. So maybe it's also like some kind of like LLM starting to recommend the two, also. So it was really crazy for me because I didn't change much, like I didn't change the product to make it open claw ready. I just did some different marketing, change the marketing a little bit, and edit the CLI. That was the main thing. Um, I saw Agent Browser, which was like, wow, I really like this thing with uh that you can play with playwright from the CLI. Let's make a CLI for posters because really it will use less context, um, it will have less context fraught, it can iterate a lot faster, but that's it. And even that was like two hours with the can you can we just like deep dive into that?
SPEAKER_01Because for someone who was a SAS now, even like whatever, like what did you do to actually get OpenCloud friendly?
SPEAKER_00Um first when when OpenClaw um when I make the first skill for OpenClaw, it was so easy. I have like my public docs. I just like took all this like main endpoints from the API reference, create one MD file, created as a skill. That's it. It was open claw friendly already. Um but then I was like, but what can I do to really stand out from the market? Not all not only open claw friendly, but in general, like being any any uh agentic tool friendly, and I understood it it's the CLI because a few things. First of all, there was like this notion lately, uh MCP is dead. People are talking about this. I don't know if it's really dead, but I totally understand where this frustration is coming from because I have also MCP for post is it's slow, it has a very huge, like it's sending so much context every time, it's like a huge context window. Um it's sometimes disconnects and so on. I really like I've seen like compared to this like when you write just like a skill, a skill it's much faster. And I was like, okay, but why when I saw this agent browser, they made a CLI. They could just like write like playwright commands and like a very big doc. They're still like because it's saving so much context. When you have a CLI instead of writing like a full HTTP request in a very big JSON uh payload, you can have like one line, like uh post is create post, minus m is the message, minus i is the id, and that's it like super, super small. And then the LLM can also um the the actual LLM can also really iterate fast, even if it's failing. It will try some CLI, doesn't work, try another CLI. It's so easy compared to imagine if it's failing, it will again need to write all this huge JSON payload, and again, and again, and every time uh when you send a message to ChatGPT or something, you send all the context that you have from the previous request. So it's becoming like really big. And yeah, if you just make it like with a CLI, it works much, much, much faster. And I think I was the one of the first people to actually understand that. So I was the first one who introduced introduced like uh CLI for for open for for for just like using agentic postis.
SPEAKER_01So basically you just need uh skill and CLI and API.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and all all you need to do for me it was easy. If you have a docs already created for you, I just like do clot code, um, you know, run dangerously. Here is the here is the uh docs, just make a CLI for me. Like like this, basically.
SPEAKER_01And can you maybe explain on the user side what is like the the point? Like, because I have open cloud. I install the skill, I take subscription to posties just to get the IPI, and then what do I do? I just chat with OpenCloud and I just say, like, yeah, can you post uh content from this source? Like, how does it work exactly?
SPEAKER_00So I think this is actually why OpenClaw is so is so good, because you can hook it to anything you want. So you can really yourself go and say, do a research yourself, go do something yourself. But you can also hook it to many services to actually get the content, or you can get a template that creates the content for you. Like Oliver created Larry, his skill. The skill is not like how to use posties, is the skill goes and first generate some pictures with open AI, do some market research, generate uh some pictures with open AI, then put the subtitles on top. And then just like schedule this to posties. But posted is just like for the scheduling, just to add it to the app in the end. You can have before that anything you want. So you can do it yourself to like write what you want. Uh, I want to create a post for posties about the importance of social media. Okay, no problem. Just do it for you, run the CLI command for you in the background and schedule this for you. Or you can use other services. And I've seen so many people now create maybe this is also part of the growth for posties. So, for example, I've seen this guy, uh, I think he's a company called Vengula, something like this, and he created a clipping service. So you can give a YouTube video, it will split it to many good parts, uh, and then just like send it to Posties to schedule those uh clips. Um, I've seen another company, actually, there are sponsors of Posties, uh, the open source, it's called uh uh Virlo, something like this. And they know how to find trending content on social media and the content of this uh uh of this thing. So you can ask, find me from this service uh trending post about uh fitness. Okay, it will give you, and then okay, now scale, like create posts inside of Post is and schedule this.
SPEAKER_01So and so Post is basically a piece of the puzzle of uh workflow, exactly like it was on NA ten. But now it's like part of OpenCloud. So basically now Post is doesn't even need a landing page anymore or a dashboard. If you think about it, if I pay once for the API, then I don't need your dashboard anymore. I don't even need an interface.
SPEAKER_00Reality, it's true, um, but in real life, you might want to visit the dashboard, so you would not use the dashboard to create stuff, but you want might want to look at your calendar. So, for example, you know, like you said to OpenClaw, go around the week and schedule different posts for me, but you know how it's going to look, what hours, and so on, it's always easier to understand, like visually, when you can actually see this. So I think this is uh people are still checking all the time the calendar to see different stuff. Um, I don't know, I I have a feeling there is going to be a next iteration of OpenClaw. And not I don't know if specifically would come from OpenClaw or Cloud Cowork and stuff. That the chat, like Telegram, whatever, will also deliver you with UI, basically. So you get a UI inside your uh your app, basically. Uh maybe the calendar will already be there or something like that. Uh and then you close the loop. You don't need to go to the Post this app anymore. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01I think you collaborate with um Oliver to actually, you know, iterate and make the app better for the skill, right? Like to actually make it good for OpenCloud, or did you just like talk to him and didn't collaborate at all?
SPEAKER_00Um, I think he asked me only for one thing that I didn't have in posters is to get the analytics. Um so he asked me for some endpoints, but he created the the whole thing himself, basically. He just wanted to um because the nice thing about his skill, it's supposed to learn from previous posts. So it will like post for you and then after a while check the views and understand, ah, this post was better than this post. Let's go into this format and then iterate and so on and keep on posting uh the right format. But except for that, I think he's a pretty technical person. Uh he's also using clot code. Um, he he managed to figure it out himself. I I don't honestly, I don't even know if people are doing stuff with post this today without like using clot code or something. So you know it really helps with this barrier, you know, of being technical with a lot of this stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, like I'm this kind of person, you know, I'm not a dev. I have some technical background because I build some WordPress and build some SaaS like myself, but I'm not a dev. But then now, like with OpenCloud and I see it, or me or my girlfriend or people around me, we just have access to this kind of thing. So you don't even need that anymore.
SPEAKER_00It's good and bad, you know. It's good because everybody can do it. It's bad because everybody can do it. So it's good, yeah, you can do it. But then it's like every if when everybody can do everything, then nobody's making money. Basically, it's much harder to make money. I'm really conflicted about this era. On the one hand, I'm programming much faster. I don't remember the last time I wrote code, but on the other hand, everybody is doing this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think it's an arbitrage time. We have to take money as fast as possible before it totally changes and switch to the new era, and we don't really know what it is yet. It's interesting, but also scary.
SPEAKER_00I'll tell you what I think about this new era, at least that's coming now. For me, tier SAS, because we are like indie hackers, let's say we are all indie hackers, and we don't build like uh the next uh hosting infrastructure, or we don't build a payment provider, we're building like simple stuff with point and click. Um and and what is going to happen in this area is that people always will think, should I use this or should I vibe code this? And where is like like the the point where it's actually matters? If I create posties and I have so many people that are paying $29 per month, vibe coding the whole thing, taking the server for yourself, um, approving all the providers, okay, you might save $10 per month. Okay, like you you won this meal this month, you have another extra meal that you can eat every day. Great. Um, really not worth vibe coding everything. But what if you are an enterprise company and then you have tons of employees, and your monthly billing is tens of thousands of dollars because you have a lot of employees inside. Here you will start to think twice: can I vibe code this solution? Like, what's going on? And and I think this is like a prediction I seen like in an article that was very viral on hacker news that people are starting to negotiate more on deals in the future, even if they use like Salesforce or whatever, because they are thinking like maybe we should just like vibe code something ourselves. And we are going to enter this market, and I'm really happy that I'm not like enterprise first. It's really, I think enterprise first with mid-tier SaaS is going to be very hard in the future.
SPEAKER_01It makes sense because like the founder of Nvidia just shared this uh new Agas era, like Agentique as a service, and they built Nemo Claw, which is a safe way to use OpenCloud for enterprise. So basically, like they will be enterprise and customer, and they will not even need the software in the middle. Because, as you say, company like UpSpot, they are taking so much money to enterprise every single month. Like that's something that they have to pay. And now, if they can vibe code or like build it themselves and tailor it to their own company, they will probably lose a lot of money.
SPEAKER_00And and I think like you know, HubSpot, Monday.com, all these companies, they already have a lot of features. Like you won't be able to vibe code everything. It's for sure. It's like when you vibe code, they vibe code. So they also have developers and they also improve the product every time you improve the product. But maybe companies don't need everything that they have, they can have a few stuff that they really need inside. So I think this is um like this mid-tier SAS is going to be hard. And I think a lot of these companies, like HopSpot and stuff, their main core power is that they understand this also. I think they will do different agentic stuff in the future. And also, HopSpot is like buying a lot of companies, so they're like trying different angles, I think, for the thing that they are doing, agentic and so on. There's going to be a problem here for all those companies. But distribution.
SPEAKER_01You said more money, more problems. And when the money is really fast, you get so many problems. How did you manage virality? And how did you actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't do either neglect stuff, I'm telling you. Honestly, I'm really all my life I worked in some companies, and in each company I was like an executioner. So, what is an executioner too in in terms of marketing, growth hacking? They do a lot of this stuff themselves, they take small freelancers to do different small stuff and so on. And you know, and and they get results for this, but they usually don't like scale a very big team. And you know, I I like the fact that I can be an indie hackers that do everything by himself. And I honestly think that you can still do a lot of stuff by yourself if you have the time to create tools for all the things that um that you have problems in, for example, customer support and so on. You really can save and not hire a lot. But it is becoming harder when you grow very fast. So, you know, when I grow 20k, I grew to 20k, it was slow growth. I would get four, five tickets for support per week, maybe. And they're like not all of them together. So I would just like go to the ticket, check what is the problem, and solve it. But when you're really becoming super viral, no, it's it's in a whole different magnitude of the amount of support tickets that you have. It's like 10, 20 per day, it's it's it's insane. And if you missed one day because you had to do some stuff, then you have also the previous one from the previous day. And it's really uh, I don't know how to explain this, but I I understood that being overwhelmed is the worst thing for a founder. Like when I'm overwhelmed, I just can't operate. So, for example, if I open my email and there's like a hundred emails that I didn't read that I need to do something, I'm like, okay, I will not do it now. Same with support. I'm like, fuck, 40 tickets? Okay, maybe I have to find a way, you know, to optimize this. And this is really something really hard with fast growth. So I want to hire um like a customer support engineer. The problem is I don't know how. I feel like it's really, really hard to do hiring today. So, you know, I I don't I I'm not a funded company. I'm I can't pay the salaries of uh, you know, like a known like a funded company. I will not pay between 10 to 20k per month to somebody. I I wish well, like when I grow more, I would definitely do this. So I'm usually with like 3 to 5k per month my budget right now to hire. And it's also fully remote. So everybody is basically applying, especially from like uh, you know, uh more developed countries. And how? Like everybody use clot code. You're trying to put a filter. I don't know. Like it's really hard to understand if it's worth going to an interview with this kind of person because you know they just like, what are you going to ask? What are you going to do? I think it's really hard to do the hiring. So because I grew so fast, then I have to hire so fast, like super stressful. Have to find a solution very fast. Um, so it can be everywhere. It could be emails, it can be people that want like a refund. It can you have to create like new processes that you usually do did it yourself. Can't you automate that? You can. You can build automation. I don't want to create an open claw automation though. Uh even though it's like sexy and stuff, I think it um it will be too expensive to start run open claw and everything. I prefer something more automated. So, for example, this is uh like one of the automation that I want to do now. Uh, I want, for example, there is like a new support ticket coming in. So 99% of the support ticket, like okay, 60 to 70% of the support ticket that comes in, I think it's mostly actually bugs, basically. So if it was just like to help, like you need to do like this, uh, perfect. So I want like a new ticket come in, come in. I use some agentic thing like maybe like cloud SDK or codex to scan the code base and to give an answer. Then if there is no answer, like it is the like a bug, it opens a PR on GitHub, and then maybe clot code also like process this PR on GitHub. If not, we just give the answer, what we need to fix and so on. So yeah, you can do this. Just need to develop it. You need to find time. I'm doing uh other stuff also. I'm working now on the Postis mobile app.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just nowhere to put your target and what to do. Yeah, I think in this era we need a 48 hours day. I can't deal with 24 hours anymore, it's not enough.
SPEAKER_00And also, I think it's like a lot of focus, you know. Like, I have a lot of free time during the day. I'm playing with my daughter, I do a lot of different things, but I don't have a lot of free uh mind shift context that I can do so fast. Like I can't like start a new SaaS some suddenly right now. Just I can't. Like my mind is bothered with okay, there is the mobile, I need to do the hiring, I need to do the support. Plus, let's see what I can do for marketing. Really hard. Like you have like all these mind shifts, I think this is the thing that usually make uh founder burn out. They do too many things at the same time.
SPEAKER_01And on top of that, you just started to create contents yourself. You say you did article and you also started TikTok. How do you deal with that? And do you have already results from that?
SPEAKER_00No, I I did a few, uh actually, I did even before OpenClaw, I did a few videos with um TikTok. Um, no, I I don't have time for this, honestly. I did like six videos, each one of the videos got like 200 views on TikTok, and one V V one video got 30k views. So already back in the day I understood there is this something also with TikTok here. But I I I just it's impossible. There is too much stuff to do. Um, and I don't want to because he nobody is like post his and Oliver's skill, it's really nice that you can schedule, like you can automate stuff and post stuff to TikTok. But if you actually listen to Oliver, what he said, it's not like his first video that he posted became viral. He had to iterate with his skill, and every time find okay, this working, this not working, it takes time. It's not like that, basically. How do you prioritize your tasks? Um, I'm a very messy person. I don't have huge pro I wish I could. I think um I haven't developed something super significant in posties for a very long time because I in my state of mind, it's something that I learned from my previous startup. Every time you create something new, this something new gives you bugs and can cause like a very high churn. So, what you want to do is all the time fix and perfect what you currently have before you're moving to like new features. Um, the worst thing is that you can have like a new feature in the dashboard that breaks and churning customer uh because of this. So I'm I'm focusing most of the time every day to fix those bugs. And there is like, you know, Postit is the biggest social media scheduling tool in terms of channels. There's like 30 channels. There is so many bugs inside. Like I try to capture all of them. I have some mechanism to catch errors and stuff, but it's very hard. Also, other companies they sometimes change their APIs and so on. So I'm really focusing on fixing bugs, it's my main priority for every day, everything that I do. Um, and then the second one is marketing. I invest most of the time of my day to understand to to, you know, understand what is the next thing to do. I think just like Doom Scrolling X all day helps you to understand all the things that are coming and how you should change whatever you do and so on. What is the next big thing? You know, they already introduced Claude dispatch um just like a day or two, and I already have a person writing an article about this. Like it's really important to be in the peak of all this kind of stuff. And then um trying right now, I'm in this position that I have a lot of money, um, and I'm trying to understand how I can use this money. It's not so easy. So I talk, for example, with Nico. Maybe you know him. He's like the master of the ads. So he's building now. Nico, he's building now a CLI for Facebook. So we are working closely because I want also to start to run ads for posties. So just also marketing, but I don't want to use the Facebook UI. I want to do it with open cloud. Not because I'm like, oh, open cloud. It's just because it's so buggy and slow to use the Facebook ads uh platform. Like I want to do fast, I want to focus on creatives, push it and do it, and try to scale my marketing. So I think my main priority is now what I'm trying to do every day is bugs, find customer support because the customer support is so bad right now. Everybody will tell you it's like the worst. Find a way to improve the customer support or hire somebody or both. Um, focus more on marketing and the next thing and scale the marketing. I've never scaled marketing that much. Like I have really a lot of budget now. I'm trying to see what will give me the most amount of uh like I put a dollar and get three. I don't want to do the opposite, put five and twenty.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you said that we are entering the personal chat assistant era and it's going to grow a lot. Can you just explain me why and what it is?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I mean, I'm I'm just saying this based on data, not not uh because I'm like trying to you know push posties. When I when OpenClaw started, for me it was very much like cloud code. I didn't understand like what's so special about OpenClaw. It's basically can be a cloud code that is connected, like cloud can also connect to all your services. Uh, plus they added this um this options to have crone jobs so you can repeat tasks, which is the cloud cowork that they made later. So for me it was a trend. Didn't really understand what you can do with it and so on. Like it was like a nice, I thought like it will like so many people said this is a trend, it's going to die. It didn't die, it kept on. Like if you go to the X trending feed, you all the time see on the side OpenClaw new version or people talking about open claw. There's always in the trending section something about open claw. So, and now NVIDIA also understood this. Dude did this limo claw. We we can see some very big shift into this whole agency stuff uh with personal chats. And it's it's not it's not ending. They're they're keeping pushing more and more. So I I think this is going there, and it's not going to be a trend. Um, it's not specifically will be a chat, maybe, but it will be like a platform with agentic stuff that's connected to all the other platforms. It's it's going to be something like this. And over time, they will also improve it, as we said. Like it will not be only text, it will generate UI for you back, um and so on. The day the data of Post is how much it grows every day, keep on getting trials like non-stop, and and and the amount of usage I see with article and people. I don't think this thing is going to die anytime soon. I think this is going to be more into this direction. Um we'll see. We we we can't know.
SPEAKER_01And a last question for you who should actually go all in into Agentiq as a service.
SPEAKER_00Everybody that is building mid-tier SaaS. So I think in every every time you build a new SaaS, um, a lot of people they build new SAS because they have like some really good idea. Uh, but uh it's many times really good to build a SaaS when you know that you're also going to have very good execution, basically, not just an idea. Like you can actually execute this idea. You say, okay, if I do this, maybe I write the X article, do this TikTok video or something, okay. I can get people paying, and so on. So all the markets are flooded because everybody can vibe code everything. So you everything is like it's it's been like there's so much sass going out every day. You need to find your blue ocean, you need to find something that other people are not doing. This is, I think, all this agentic stuff because when you go there, there is not enough people there. Actually, I'm not just saying this. I have, I don't know if you've seen, I have another company that I'm working with. They have a technical co-founder there. It's called Agent Media to generate UGC. We do it with a special focus for a CLI to be agentic, only agentic. Like you hook it with OpenClaw, plus you put it with uh posties, so it will generate the UGC and schedule this to posties. There is tons of other UGC generators, same as I have in posties, but I'm trying to go into this blue ocean. So if not every startup can. Like some startups, I think they are forcing themselves to be agentic where there is. I don't really understand the use case. So for example, and maybe I'm totally wrong, like cal.com hook themselves into uh OpenClaw right now. They did a product count launch and so on. But what is I'm not sure I kind of understand the use case behind this, like what do you use the open claw with, maybe in better marketing education, we'll say. So I think really you need to find like if you have a really useful good use case and use really good use cases is usually are like uh um I think active things that can happen, it can be uh generate an article with SEO. So super agentic just to generate like SEO content. Actually, I did something interesting with SEO that I think you can't do this without OpenClaw. Is that I installed Agent Browser and I gave an agent browser um ability to access my dashboard in posties. So it's generate screenshot of the dashboard with the article that is generating with the SEO, hooked up also to AHREFT and SEMRush to understand what to build and Google uh console. So, really, SEO can be really good, also. All this social media generating things, the people also, you know, there's so many companies that are not like a social media to scheduling tool, but just like A like uh real far.farm and stuff that is just like creating the TikTok video for you and scheduling for you specifically, all those like are going to work amazingly. Marketing specifically is going to work amazingly with uh with all these things. And um, I think also like all these CRM CMSs, great with OpenClaw to add information fast. You know, sometimes I use Notion. Uh I used it with my the previous company I work with, Novu, and you know, so many pages of Notion, where are you gonna find whatever you want and so on? I know that if you use OpenClaw, it will find exactly where to add the content or where to write or where to read the content. Um, so all the CMSs um and so on. Code builders, also like if somebody wrote like another base 44 or something, also can work amazingly, I think. Um if you use it with OpenClaw, if it can hook up to other services. In general, everything that can be hooked up with an external service will work really, really great. Um, I think because you can get like more information from more places to build your stuff. You should um when you build a new if if somebody is watching this and they they don't have a SaaS yet, I suggest see this trend and then build a SAS that can use this trend, not to be the like I would not suggest building another open claw wrapper to deploy open claw um um dockers and stuff like that, but to use the trend, basically, as a skill inside. It can work good.
SPEAKER_01Well, Navo, that was amazing. Thank you for your time, and I'm sure we'll see you soon out again in the podcast.